Keep Ellinger

[knowwonnose]

Originally Posted by Aerick

I think there may be a "happy" medium here. Obviously, making this team successful in a new market is paramount, but coaching changes every few games is not the best way to accomplish that.

I'm a big Ellinger proponent, but I also don't believe he has 2 years on a "ho-hum" record here. He has to produce and he has to do it this season. Especially with the stadium controversy going on that is crucial to the team's viability. If we had a winning product on the field right now, perhaps public sentiment would turn more in our favor on this important topic. Everyone loves a winner and can get caught up in the furor that a winning team brings.

Therefore, I believe the month of May is critical for his career. If he can come away with 2 home wins and an away win, I believe he's a keeper because he can sustain the amount of success the team needs right now for it's fans and financial future. If he can win 3 home games out of the next 4, I think he also stays. However, if he only pulls off 2 wins the rest of this month, his job is in jeopardy, and I'm not sure I'd be against a coaching change, although I'd like him to remain in some capacity as a reserve player development coach because I agree that his skills in this area are extremely valuable.

We need to have a successful season for this team to succeed and remain here in the future, and if Coach E can't show that he's the guy to get this done (and I'm not talking about a championship team, but I am talking about a playoff team) this season, we need to stop the bleeding. You have to bleed a little for a surgery to be successful, but you also can't lose too much blood or you'll die. We haven't lost too much blood yet, and the surgery still has a chance of success...

I'll agree to this happy medium.

[Scholesy]

Originally Posted by I_Believe_In_Kreis

You're correct, it wouldn't. However, with the right coach it doesn't come down to that free kick.
I agree with almost everything you say with regards to key moments. That stuff's on the players. The real question is, why does it always come down to key moments with this team? If we put some of these teams out of their misery early, or manage to hold a lead, we can afford some of these mistakes, miscues, bad bounces, whatever you want to call them. For example, if we play with better effort in Houston, that "lucky" 86th minute goal by DeRo only serves to cut our winning margin. Take those late key moments out of the game by burying your opponent early. That's RSL's biggest problem IMO, and it goes squarely on the coach.
But SpiffCoug makes a good argument - thanks for your post.

How is that the coach? If the players who are paid professionals can't maintain motivation for a full game then how is that his fault? I think this speaks to a ver American way of thinking, the microwave mentality - I want it and I want it now. Stop the game and caoch you run on and re-motivate the team, ok, now let's start the game again.

Now I agree that Coach does have some responsibility to get the players motivated but you just can't control these players all the time, at some point they are adults and must act thus. We have some good players, but I think everyone is missing the point, we still aren't there with our players yet and in any expansion team it takes a little time to get there. Now that doesn't mean I agreed with every trade or buy, I don't, but I also have to assume that I don't know everything, I don't know the facts, certainly not all of them so to make a judgement based on a short term one season and a handful of games is insane and very shortsighted.

[Scholesy]

[QUOTE=Burninator]There seems to be one particular argument that gets mentioned every now and then, but isn't explored well enough. The argument is that we changed over %50 of our team during the offseason with the goal of upgrading our team and literally have nothing to show for it, hence the argument that the things that haven't been changed (coaching) are the ones that are screwing us over.

I think we have upgrades in the following players: Sequeira, Klein, Cunningham, Garlick, Ballouchy and Torres. I like these guys more than Pierce, Dunseth, DJ, or <shudder> Behncke, for example. We have a significant jump in talent level, I believe, in these players.

Now, if we have more talent, why aren't we getting the results? There are a couple of viable options, and poor refereeing and "bounces" not going our way don't count (to me):

1) Team hasn't gelled sufficiently: What is practice for? Who is responsible for the team's gel state? Supposedly we have a much better lockerroom atmosphere this year, less infighting, etc etc. So what is keeping the team from gelling? Ellinger MAY shoulder a significant portion of the blame here.

2) Talent not matched by workrate/effort/conditioning: We saw this in LA against Chivas, and somewhat in the Galaxy game. Who is responsible for proper training and conditioning, and also for trying to build a winning attitude into our players? Once again, Ellinger MAY shoulder a significant portion of the blame here.

3) Talent underutilized by lack of effective tactics: Playing guys out of position, asking guys to learn new positions, playing 3-5-2 against 4-3-3; Lack of team cohesion, tactically speaking, bad passing, little movement off the ball, etc. Plenty of evidence here against Ellinger, and certain players as well.

4) Talent overshadowed by lack of discipline: WHINING TO THE REFS about calls/no-calls, sitting on the ground after being fouled, throwing up arms into the air after no call, etc. Someone either here or on BigSoccer once recommended that RSL outsource its anger towards referees and opposing teams to the fans in the stands. I agree. If I were running a soccer team, I would tell my players to get up ASAP when they fell, to not whine to the ref, and to just give it their all. Anyone not doing so would be penalized. They can show their frustrations in other ways, preferrably involving the back of the other team's net, and not involving yellow cards. NO MORE STANDING AROUND WAITING FOR THE REF, LADY LUCK, OR "BOUNCES"!

Ellinger is not looking too good right now, and I don't care if Akwari played on a team that went down 0-5 in the late 90s then went on to win the Eastern Conference. I don't want our team to underachieve, and I feel that they are doing so. We need more players like Kreis on our team, players that CARE. Ellinger needs to get fired up, I want to see him get ejected from a game. I want to see PASSION in my team, and I don't see any coming from its coach. The trickle-down effect from coach to player is killing us, IMHO.[QUOTE=Burninator]

That's the point - you don't see it. Just because you don't see Coach running over and punching the ref doesn't mean he doesn't act. I watched both he and Peter Mellor both get told to step back or they would be ejected from the game on saturday. We don't know what goes on at training all the time, or in the locker room, we don't know what is said and frankly nobody knows who decided on all of the players we brought in.

i do agree with one point, formation is always a talking point because that equates to tactics and that is a coaching gig, although I know of a number of times where the players simply didn't play as told to. that happens in every team sometimes, that is down to the coach to fix.

Ask any player, one on one, sign a NDA and I promise you they'll all say that they simply aren't pulling their weight and that it isn't coach.

[Old Ska]

Originally Posted by knowwonnose

The proof will be in the pudding, if there isn't an artificial pressure to get Ellinger out of there.

What the fans want is an "artifical pressure" now? Simply ridiculous.

Sure, you could make the case that what the fans want is simply one of several things to consider (and with Real trying to build a stadium in the face of some pretty tough opposition I would say that it carries more weight than for a team in a different situation), but to dismiss what the fans are largely clamoring for as "artificial" is offensive to the fans.

[Rover]

The coach is responsible for preparing his team to play and for managing the game with tactical changes and substitutions. I think we're all very well aware that soccer is a primarily player-directed game once the whistle sounds. Much more than most sports, coaches in soccer must do their work before the game.

The point about all the examples that have been described here and in other threads is that RSL has seldom if ever been well prepared for 90 minutes against MLS opposition. Additionally, we so often fail to execute the most basic fundamentals of soccer (passing, trapping, movement off the ball, proper marking assignments, etc.) that after 40 games, it's valid to ask just what the coaching staff has been doing.

The players play the game but the coach is ultimately responsible for the perfomance of his team. Axiomatic.

I don't think it's at all unreasonable to expect that with responsibility comes accountability.

[bordelais7]

Originally Posted by Scholesy

How is that the coach? If the players who are paid professionals can't maintain motivation for a full game then how is that his fault? I think this speaks to a ver American way of thinking, the microwave mentality - I want it and I want it now. Stop the game and caoch you run on and re-motivate the team, ok, now let's start the game again.

So......what exactly IS the coach responsible for?

We have a team that doesn't win. And continues to not win. And we're blaming the players. While at the same time insisting that the coach is powerless to help them, and therefore should avoid all blame. So.....why do we need a coach, then, if he has no influence in wins or losses?

Managers are not only a part of the sports world, but are involved in all facets of life. We have managers where I work who are responsible for organizing, motivating, and ultimately for PRODUCING RESULTS. I guess we should just get rid of them, since we're all supposed to be self-motivating "paid professionals". That's not the real world.

I'll stick with my microwave, thank you very much. Have fun slow-roasting another 5 seasons of losses on the campfire.

[Scholesy]

Originally Posted by Rover

The coach is responsible for preparing his team to play and for managing the game with tactical changes and substitutions. I think we're all very well aware that soccer is a primarily player-directed game once the whistle sounds. Much more than most sports, coaches in soccer must do their work before the game.

The point about all the examples that have been described here and in other threads is that RSL has seldom if ever been well prepared for 90 minutes against MLS opposition. Additionally, we so often fail to execute the most basic fundamentals of soccer (passing, trapping, movement off the ball, proper marking assignments, etc.) that after 40 games, it's valid to ask just what the coaching staff has been doing.

The players play the game but the coach is ultimately responsible for the perfomance of his team. Axiomatic.

I don't think it's at all unreasonable to expect that with responsibility comes accountability.

Rover

I can't say that I disagree with most of what you say, mostly because you say it in a sensible manner as opposed to 'ranting' sarcastically and uncontrollably. I agree that the coach bears a good amount of responsibility for motivation, training, player aquisition and strategy. However I am surprised that some people seem to discount the idea that football is a team effort and sport, it requires a staff - trainers, equipment managers, coaches, a front office management team, and players. The idea that after one season it is so easy to people to point the finger without all the facts is simply ridiculous. I understand frustration, the need to blame someone, anyone, I get it, I really do, I just don't think that now is the time, good grief we're a few games in to the second season. I'm not saying that there aren't fixes needed, but I question the logic (as do even the most critical professionals and sports writers out there) of ousting a coach at this stage in the 'game'. Everyone seems so eager to place blame, my microwave comment was simply referring to a lack of patience, I wasn't trying to insult sensitive people.

I guess I am just a little tired of people who are obviously more qualified in soccer than Coach Ellinger and the players apparently (who in private conversation do not blame the coach) placing blame with such a lack of information at such an early point in the season. I agree with much of your posts on the issues at hand, I'm frustrated that we're losing, I hate it, I'm a fan of course I hate it, but it doesn't mean that at such an early stage with so many new players that i am willing to just throw in the towel and point the finger at the easiest target.

The players are starting to find their way, they are going in the right direction; I just don't know a team that has ever been perfect from the start so yeah, maybe I am too patient, maybe not. But the only thing I do know is that panicking never helped anyone.

[Scholesy]

Originally Posted by bordelais7

So......what exactly IS the coach responsible for?

We have a team that doesn't win. And continues to not win. And we're blaming the players. While at the same time insisting that the coach is powerless to help them, and therefore should avoid all blame. So.....why do we need a coach, then, if he has no influence in wins or losses?

Managers are not only a part of the sports world, but are involved in all facets of life. We have managers where I work who are responsible for organizing, motivating, and ultimately for PRODUCING RESULTS. I guess we should just get rid of them, since we're all supposed to be self-motivating "paid professionals". That's not the real world.

I'll stick with my microwave, thank you very much. Have fun slow-roasting another 5 seasons of losses on the campfire.

Erm ... hello over reaction ... I never said that there were no problems, I did not say that coaches had no influence and as for do I hold players accountable for how they perform ... erm yeah ... I don't think that's a radical notion, mostly that's how it works. I reiterate, I did not see coach a mistake that led to two goals, out two most senior players did that all on their own, and the falling apart that happened for the follwoing 25 minutes was a player thing, not keeping formation, not taking the chances, not finishing the chances. I'm not saying that Coach is faultless but I am saying that firing him is not the answer at such an early stage in the season.

EVERYONE gets to be held accountable, not just the manager. I have a team I manage, I hold them accountable for there performance, sometimes even after training sessions and daily calls, even some weekly visits and some daily coaching it just doesn't work and they simply don't do what they are asked and are capable of, so I try something new, a different approach, sometimes that is all it takes, sometimes it requires more than that, I in turn am held accounatable by the board for how I manage - I think that is the part that people are missing. You seem to assume that Coach Ellinger is not held accountable, don't you think he is? Do you really think that Mr Checketts doesn't ask awkward questions or ask Coach what the problem is? It's not like he's new to the business of sports you know.

So I just think people should relax a little or at least have the bollocks to walk up to John and say this all to his face instead of hiding on the internet.

I'm done with this topic, I haven't posted for a while and think it's best if I don't again.

[Rover]

Originally Posted by Scholesy

Rover

I can't say that I disagree with most of what you say, mostly because you say it in a sensible manner as opposed to 'ranting' sarcastically and uncontrollably. I agree that the coach bears a good amount of responsibility for motivation, training, player aquisition and strategy. However I am surprised that some people seem to discount the idea that football is a team effort and sport, it requires a staff - trainers, equipment managers, coaches, a front office management team, and players. The idea that after one season it is so easy to people to point the finger without all the facts is simply ridiculous. I understand frustration, the need to blame someone, anyone, I get it, I really do, I just don't think that now is the time, good grief we're a few games in to the second season. I'm not saying that there aren't fixes needed, but I question the logic (as do even the most critical professionals and sports writers out there) of ousting a coach at this stage in the 'game'. Everyone seems so eager to place blame, my microwave comment was simply referring to a lack of patience, I wasn't trying to insult sensitive people.

I guess I am just a little tired of people who are obviously more qualified in soccer than Coach Ellinger and the players apparently (who in private conversation do not blame the coach) placing blame with such a lack of information at such an early point in the season. I agree with much of your posts on the issues at hand, I'm frustrated that we're losing, I hate it, I'm a fan of course I hate it, but it doesn't mean that at such an early stage with so many new players that i am willing to just throw in the towel and point the finger at the easiest target.

The players are starting to find their way, they are going in the right direction; I just don't know a team that has ever been perfect from the start so yeah, maybe I am too patient, maybe not. But the only thing I do know is that panicking never helped anyone.

Yours is a welcome viewpoint, and I'm all for looking at this with some perspective. I can't speak for anyone else, but I've hesistated to come right out and say the coach should be fired because I'm not convinced that the inevitable disruption would do us any good at all. Certainly, frustration is not any more a strategy than hope has been.

I can't say that I have any inside information on the team. I'm about as unconnected as a dedicated supporter can be. My observations are only from what I see on the field and what I know of team practices.

I did expect much more from this current group, although some of our off-season player moves didn't make much sense to me. But the most frustrating thing for me is that when we take the field I do not believe we are properly prepared to win the game. I just don't see the cohesiveness and attention to detail that I expect from a well coached team. Maybe my profession makes me too set in the mindset that the boss is responsible, but that's the way I see it.

In the end, whatever confidence I or any other fan has or doesn't have is of very little importance, since the decision will be made by the club leadership. The sense I get--and you might be able to confirm this--is that although they are as dissatisfied with the results as we are, they are not going to make a change at this point. We're probably looking at the end of the season before everyone's job comes under review. That's what I would expect from the leadership based on the way they approach the job.

[knowwonnose]

[QUOTE=Scholesy][QUOTE=Burninator]There seems to be one particular argument that gets mentioned every now and then, but isn't explored well enough. The argument is that we changed over %50 of our team during the offseason with the goal of upgrading our team and literally have nothing to show for it, hence the argument that the things that haven't been changed (coaching) are the ones that are screwing us over.

I think we have upgrades in the following players: Sequeira, Klein, Cunningham, Garlick, Ballouchy and Torres. I like these guys more than Pierce, Dunseth, DJ, or <shudder> Behncke, for example. We have a significant jump in talent level, I believe, in these players.

Now, if we have more talent, why aren't we getting the results? There are a couple of viable options, and poor refereeing and "bounces" not going our way don't count (to me):

1) Team hasn't gelled sufficiently: What is practice for? Who is responsible for the team's gel state? Supposedly we have a much better lockerroom atmosphere this year, less infighting, etc etc. So what is keeping the team from gelling? Ellinger MAY shoulder a significant portion of the blame here.

2) Talent not matched by workrate/effort/conditioning: We saw this in LA against Chivas, and somewhat in the Galaxy game. Who is responsible for proper training and conditioning, and also for trying to build a winning attitude into our players? Once again, Ellinger MAY shoulder a significant portion of the blame here.

3) Talent underutilized by lack of effective tactics: Playing guys out of position, asking guys to learn new positions, playing 3-5-2 against 4-3-3; Lack of team cohesion, tactically speaking, bad passing, little movement off the ball, etc. Plenty of evidence here against Ellinger, and certain players as well.

4) Talent overshadowed by lack of discipline: WHINING TO THE REFS about calls/no-calls, sitting on the ground after being fouled, throwing up arms into the air after no call, etc. Someone either here or on BigSoccer once recommended that RSL outsource its anger towards referees and opposing teams to the fans in the stands. I agree. If I were running a soccer team, I would tell my players to get up ASAP when they fell, to not whine to the ref, and to just give it their all. Anyone not doing so would be penalized. They can show their frustrations in other ways, preferrably involving the back of the other team's net, and not involving yellow cards. NO MORE STANDING AROUND WAITING FOR THE REF, LADY LUCK, OR "BOUNCES"!

Ellinger is not looking too good right now, and I don't care if Akwari played on a team that went down 0-5 in the late 90s then went on to win the Eastern Conference. I don't want our team to underachieve, and I feel that they are doing so. We need more players like Kreis on our team, players that CARE. Ellinger needs to get fired up, I want to see him get ejected from a game. I want to see PASSION in my team, and I don't see any coming from its coach. The trickle-down effect from coach to player is killing us, IMHO.

Originally Posted by Burninator

That's the point - you don't see it. Just because you don't see Coach running over and punching the ref doesn't mean he doesn't act. I watched both he and Peter Mellor both get told to step back or they would be ejected from the game on saturday. We don't know what goes on at training all the time, or in the locker room, we don't know what is said and frankly nobody knows who decided on all of the players we brought in.

i do agree with one point, formation is always a talking point because that equates to tactics and that is a coaching gig, although I know of a number of times where the players simply didn't play as told to. that happens in every team sometimes, that is down to the coach to fix.

Ask any player, one on one, sign a NDA and I promise you they'll all say that they simply aren't pulling their weight and that it isn't coach.

Said very well. I think you are a good voice of reason on this issue. I'm not happy with the losses. I felt disgust even directed at the coach after the LAG loss, but once I cooled off, I realized that this wouldn't be the best time to have a coaching change. I hope that your calmer attitude and name work together to bring calmer heads to the fans, if not the team.